3.15.2007

Dr. David Hunt: The ‘Thoughtful Christian’: Perception (and Reality)

So here are the notes from his talk tonight. I can't say enough how this challenges me. Yes the perception is that we are angry and judgemental. But we also fight the "don't drink, don't think" stigma. I'm grateful to Dr. Hunt for sharing with us. We've got a lot to learn here. Please note that each new Roman numeral represents a new slide.

So what do you think?


I. The ‘Thoughtful Christian’: Perception (and Reality)

II. The Flat Earth Society: a hypothetical student club that also has a perception problem:
1. involvement in Earth Day event will only go so far in overcoming this problem
2. this doesn’t really address their credibility issues
3. in their case, not much can!

III. The Whittier College Christian Fellowship: a real student club with a perception problem
1. how finding common ground with our critics can address this problem
2. but: like the FES, other credibility issues remain
3. unlike the FES, Christians have incredible resources for addressing these issues

IV. Our split heritage:
Tertullian: “What does Athens have to do with Jerusalem?”
“I believe it because it’s absurd.”
Augustine: All truth is God’s truth.

V. Some members of our “support group”:
Augustine, Aquinas, Descartes, Leibniz, Kepler, Newton, Dante, Milton, Dostoevsky, Flannery O’Connor, Bach, William Wilberforce, Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa

VI. The College Years: intellectual growth, spiritual stagnation

VII. An argument is a connected set of statements in which one statement (the conclusion) is alleged to follow from the other statements (the premises).

VIII. The Logos
logos > logic, -logy (biology, anthropology, theology, etc.)
Man made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27)
God is love: when we’re less than loving we fall short of the divine image.
Likewise, God is Logos: when we’re less than logical, we fall short of the divine image.

IX. Logos as Ultimate Explanation
Humans are explanation-seekers
Aristotle: All men by nature desire to know.

X. Lion got to roar, bird got to fly,
Man got to ask himself why, why, why.

Lion got to sleep, bird got to land
Man got to tell himself he understand.

XI. Two roles for argument?
(1) When we’re confident that we’ve got it right and are trying to convince others, we might use certain arguments that we have reason to believe might be effective with the audience we are trying to convince.
(2) When we don’t know what to believe and are trying to figure it out for ourselves, we might consider and evaluate arguments that appear relevant to the issue we are trying to sort out.
The first of these is in the service of effective apologetics

XII. But (1) and (2) aren’t the only possibilities.

XIII. Responsible Apologetics
Do we have an obligation to make sure that the arguments we use for purposes of apologetics are good arguments?

XIV. Understanding What We Already Believe
Beyond their use in persuading others, we need to consider and evaluate arguments for ourselves when trying to deepen our own understanding of what it is that we already believe.
“Lord I believe, help Thou my unbelief.” (Mark 9:24)
Faith seeking understanding (fides quaerens intellectum)—motto of St. Anselm

XV. We are naturally tempted to go easy on arguments with whose conclusions we agree. This temptation should be resisted.

XVI. Example: Why Jesus should be believed when he makes claims about Himself

When Jesus said that He is the Son of God, either He was telling the truth, He was crazy, or He was a liar.
But everyone (even the skeptic) agrees that Jesus was a good man.
He could not be both good and crazy, and He could not be both good and a liar.
So He was telling the truth.
Therefore, Jesus is the Son of God.

XVII. Compare:
When St. Francis of Assisi said that the Earth, not the Sun, is the center of our planetary system, either he was telling the truth, he was crazy, or he was a liar.
But everyone agrees that St. Francis was a good man.
He could not be both good and crazy, and he could not be both good and a liar.
So he was telling the truth.
Therefore, the Earth is the center of our planetary system.

XVIII. Both arguments grossly oversimplify the alternatives:
a. they overlook the possibility of people like St. Francis, who are neither crazy nor liars but simply mistaken about some things
b. they also overlook the fact that some people are both very good and a little crazy (perhaps St. Francis is again an example!), while others are both very good and occasionally truth-challenged

XIX. I acknowledge, Lord, and I give thanks that You have created Your image in me, so that I may remember You, think of You, love You. But this image is so effaced and worn away by vice, so darkened by the smoke of sin, that it cannot do what it was made to do unless You renew it and reform it. I do not try, Lord, to attain Your lofty heights, because my understanding is in no way equal to it. But I do desire to understand Your truth a little, that truth that my heart believes and loves. For I do not seek to understand so that I may believe; but I believe so that I may understand. For I believe this also, that ‘unless I believe, I shall not understand’ [Isa.7:9]. (Anselm, Proslogion)

21 comments:

Chad said...

makes me want to read up on Anselm.

Curt said...

I had one problem with Dr. Hunt's deconstruction of the liar, lunatic, or Lord argument. He made small mention of one problem but it's actually pretty important. If someone is the Son of God, I think they would know it. That's why Jesus couldn't have been simply mistaken. I have never heard of anyone saying that Jesus actually claimed he was the Son of God but that he was mistaken, because it just doesn't make sense.

I have more often come across the argument that Jesus never actually claimed to be the Son of God. These people often won't disagree that the Bible presents him as such, but will argue that Jesus never said the things the gospels say he said. Fortunately, on this point you can easily point out that his disciples died with the belief that Jesus was the Son of God.

mc_artist said...

I have a friend of the Jewish faith and we've had a few discussions about Jesus and his claims to be God and all that. One heated argument we had concerned the corruption of the new testament (being that she is of Jewish faith, she believes that the new testament was written by the romans that persecuted Jews, and therefore, it's all lies and deceit) and how Jesus, being who he said he was is not even relavent because of the scriptural corruption through the Romans pertaining to who Jesus was. I just was wondering if anyone had anything to say on the matter?

Curt said...

One thing that Chad has spoken on in the last few weeks is learning to address the pain behind the intellectual questions people pose. While some people are truly intellectually interested in learning the truth, there are many people who have been hurt by the church or who fear the persecution that Christians can receive, or... well there's myriad of reasons why people would not want to become Christians. For a Jew, believing Christianity would mean distrusting rabbis and family members who have told them Jesus was not the Messiah, and turning their back on the people closest to them is very hard to do. More often with non-believers, they are simply afraid of giving up a life of sin (a scary thought for sure). I would suggest focusing not on the person's intellectual defenses but rather on their emotional defenses, which may be hiding underneath the surface.

How do you do this? I don't think there is one way for all people. The first step is to pin point what their problem really is. Then you try to give love and truth to that problem. To them you represent God, so I suggest simply being compassionate and saying that you can understand where they are coming from and why it would be hard to believe in God after their experiences. Sometimes knowing the other person understands can make it safe for them to really stop and think about where they are emotionally.

Once you do this, you may find yourself more able to persuade them out of your own experiences of how Christianity has been meaningful to you. But this friend may still want to know they can trust the Bible, and that is fair enough. I think the records of the New Testament have proven to be accurate and untampered with. I'm sure Chad could be a better source of information on this topic. But don't put too much pressure on yourself to save them. In the end, it is between them and God.

mc_artist said...

Okay Chad, my profile has been updated for you now :D

Jared Begg said...

curt
i am a little confused as to your first comment here.

If someone is the Son of God, I think they would know it. That's why Jesus couldn't have been simply mistaken. I have never heard of anyone saying that Jesus actually claimed he was the Son of God but that he was mistaken, because it just doesn't make sense.

i wasnt there so i dont know what Dr. hunt was saying but simply in response to what is here..... Even IF we allow that IF someone is the son of God he would know it (which is not an entirely accepted statement by the way) it does not follow that if someone IS NOT the son of God he would not think that he is. perhaps being the SOG would protect someone from the problem of being mistaken. But if one is not the SOG then he has no such protection. Therefore it is quite possible to claim that you are the SOG while it is not true, and thus be mistaken about it.

I am quite certain there are at least a few people alive today who continue to be mistaken about such things.
-jared

Curt said...

Yeah but they fall into the lunatic part, not into the mistaken. He was claiming that the three options of lord, liar, and lunatic were incomplete and that there is a fourth option that Jesus could be mistaken. I'm just saying that it's hard for someone of sane mind to mistake themself for the Son of God.

Jared Begg said...

ahhh

that makes more sense....
again, i wasnt there. but perhaps he was working on a continuum. Such that someone who is a little crazy gets the title of being mistaken and someone who is really crazy is a lunatic.
but i dunno.
jared

Chad said...

N.T. Wright talks about whether or not Jesus knew if he was God in his book, THE CHALLENGE OF JESUS.

He says "no," if we imagine Jesus "knowing" things like we try to know things in the 21st century. Wright says that he didn't "know" he was God in the same way that he knew that he was left-handed, or a Laker fan. Wright says that he knew only his Vocation. His Vocation was to come to be Israel to Israel...and then to the world. Whatever redemptive role Israel should have had in the world, Jesus' knew his Vocation was to embody that call. In doing this, he lived Story, and he lived Symbol. Specifically, he challenged all the central Jewish symbols (Temple, Torah, Wisdom and Passover) and lived symbolically, articulating, then doing what these symbols were designed to do in the first place. His message: "Israel has failed to embody these redemptive symbols. These symbols find their fullness in me. As a result, The Kingdom of God is now among you."

I agree with this. There is an obvious way to say that Jesus knew he was God. I know it's splitting hairs, but i just don't think he knew he was God in the obvious "of course he knew" way.

Wright says that Jesus didn't know he was God, but he knew his Vocation, which could only be the Vocation of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Isn't this another way of saying that Jesus knew he was God? Yes. He knew it in that he knew his Vocation.

So I guess I'd say he knew he was God in the same way I know the story of the Three Little Pigs. I know the story. I know the point. I know the direction the story is heading. I get the climax. I know that if I were the smart pig, I'd build my house out of brick, not straw. And somehow, going about building the right kind of house seems more important than going around town shouting, "I'm the smart pig who is the climax of this story, and I'm going to build a house out of brick, not out of straw."

I think it's the Enlightenment that would want me to spell it out. I think it's the Jews of the first Century, convinced that they were still in Exile (this time Roman...but still Exile) who would have understood a man living the climax to the long and painful Story they had all been living.

L said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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